Episode 24: How do I develop intuitive eating skills for myself and my 7 year old?
In this week’s episode of the Art & Science of Eating, Jessica and her guest Shannon explore the question: “How do I develop intuitive eating skills for myself and my 7 year old?”. She explains for Shannon:
To understand hunger-fullness cues better when under stress.
How Ellyn Satter’s “Division of Responsibility in Feeding” can be used for both Shannon and her 7 year old son
Links to Ellyn Satter’s website on her “Division of Responsibility in Feeding”. Ellyn also has wonderful books in this area!
Intro
Welcome to the art and science of eating. I’m Jessica Begg, registered dietician and clinical counsellor. I worked for fifteen years in programs for the treatment of eating disorders. I now help those that struggle with emotional eating and their relationship with their body. This podcast is where I answer questions to help people along this bumpy journey to creating peace with both food and their body.
Podcast
Thanks so much Shannon for coming on the podcast. I know that you heard me calling out for questions so I really appreciate you diving in and asking one and coming onto the show.
You’re welcome, I’m excited!
Great, great. Okay so fire away; tell me what your question is. So something that I’ve really been struggling with is when I’m making decisions about what to eat, when to eat, or how much to eat, I find that I have a really hard time listening to the messages from my body because my brain has been bombarded with messages that I’ve received over the last 40 years from fat phobia diet culture, on social media, from family, and from society. So, I guess my question is when I’m eating how can I differentiate from my own body feelings, thoughts and sensations versus the patterns, the habits, and messages from diet culture that have been such a huge influence on my life.
Yes, yes. So, tell me can you give me an example where this confusion might play a role?
Absolutely, so for example, when it’s 4 o’clock and it’s been a while since I’ve had a snack or had lunch then I think oh I’m feeling a little bit hungry I should get a snack and then something comes into my mind and say if you’re hungry then you should drink water so then I think well I’ll drink some water then.
In that example I’m sure you’ve probably had different ones and we can dive into those two. In that specific example what I like about that is that you actually got hunger cue there. The fact that your body is saying hm I’m interested in eating, I would act on that and it sounds that the opposing diet culture message was you should ignore your hunger or you should push it off. Try to fill up with water, try to distract yourself or try to tell yourself you're not hungry. So I think the fact that you can differentiate between those two in this example, I really like because you’re actually getting hunger cues. So if you can see that your hunger cues and trust your body that they’re right and that you can act on them. If we walked that example further, sometimes people in the afternoon might be somewhat confused even that they’re like I’m not sure if I’m hungry, so that’s where I thought you might go -- I’m not sure if I’m hungry but you’re telling me I was so yes act on that one. But if you’re like it’s afternoon, it’s a bit of time away from my lunch and I know that dinner has come off, I kinda think that I might be hungry but I’m not sure. Even in that example, I would suggest for people to eat cause I find that when our body eats if it’s a legitimate hunger, food will sort it out as in our urges to eat will start typically calming down because we’re addressing that need or it was stress driven, then I would say try eating and you might notice oh I found that it didn't really sort it out or I felt like it was creating more issues with me like it was sort of ramping up in terms of this intensity. Then I’d say well okay maybe we need to find out are you stressed out about something? Or what are you feeling and can we address it in that way.
That’s a really good point because I think in those instances that is sort of coming home from work, getting my son sorted, figuring out what supper is all about. So there is a level of stress there and it could be this need for balance or comfort or stability and just like I’m in a moment of stress and I’ve got all these things to juggle. I need something. So is it actually hunger that I was feeling or was it just, I need something.
Yeah, I think that’s a good question but also I think the root of concern there is driven by diet culture fear, is we should fear hunger, we should fear food, we have this uncontrollable need to eat and I think that that’s the underlying thing to examine, is just like going pee. Do we need to fear going to the washroom when we can properly address it? And when we y'know manager toileting okay something scary but I think that the diet culture has made hunger scary to your example y'know how I thought I should drink water instead. We’ve been told that hunger is something we should kind of stifle and ignore. And when you bring it up and start addressing it, whether or not you need something to make cooking dinner easier I think that’s an okay and super manageable -- it just makes sense to eat at that time right? If you’re feeling hungry I think you should eat.
Yeah that makes sense. I think also with that question in terms of time of the day is also the rules that I’ve been taught about. Like our meal times, and so if it’s just before supper then I shouldn’t eat anything because that’ll ruin my supper.
The thing about your next meal, so let’s say in theory with this example of we act on your hunger and we’re not quite sure is it physical hunger or is it nervous energy that I’m trying to address through food. If you got into your next meal like let’s say you start eating food and then dinner is served 30 minutes - 1 hour later and you’re like I’m not really that hungry or I’m not as hungry as I would typically do. Here’s another point where diet culture is never eat when you’re not hungry and shames people and creates like this is a problem. The thing is this is not. Is that, if you got into hungry not as hungry as you would typically, you just eat as much until you’re that same kind of amount of fullness that you would typically finish at, comfortably full. If we overshoot a previous meal or previous snack that would just tend to go to that next meal or snack, not as hungry and we can manage that and that’s where the intuitiveness comes in, is that it helps you to be more flexible I guess what I’m trying to say. You can be more flexible from meal to meal, snack to snack
Alright, that makes sense. So one thing I was thinking about when you were talking is that when I’m sitting and having my meal then, I have this idea in my head that I need to finish my plate. I need to clean my plate and that’s something I’ve been raised from childhood I remember is having food not necessarily a privilege or a luxury but it was something that we valued so I don’t wanna leave things on my plate. Not as an adult, I can acknowledge for sure anything left on my plate can go in the fridge and enjoyed later. But there’s still these patterns and messages that I guess when I was younger, they were ingrained in me. So I think about that and then I think about too when I sit across the table from my son, should he be finishing his plate? So then I have these messages that I have internalized and have become part of my own way of living and … you understand what I mean? Like there’s so much, so much happening so when I think about feeling full or feeling satisfied with the amount and what I eat, I still have the inclination to push through that and finish my plate.
Yeah and what you said around childhood norms of finishing the plate and us the parents saying that that’s kind of a polite way of eating, I think was really important for you to remind yourself -- yes you can put this food away in the fridge to have later. That’s one part. I think from my perspective in terms of intuitive eating, that I think links in also permission to eat when you’re hungry so that you can give yourself permission to finish when you’re full. They have to go hand in hand to work properly from my perspective in terms of trying to get people comfortable with their hunger and fullness cues, is that often, again, through diet culture it’s okay to push off hunger but it’s not okay to overstuff, but in order to allow yourself to not push beyond the point of fullness, you have to remind yourself that you can eat when you’re hungry again.
Right, that actually kind of a cool hit. So, that’s true and of course I know that in my cognitive brain. I know that food is available and that I don’t have to finish but guess it’s just making that mental switch to even pushing my plate away and knowing that I can come back in an hour to have more or … but then so then again I’m thinking about my family dynamics and my son is 7 years old and thinking about how well when we have meal time, we sit and enjoy that as a family which is really lovely. And then when I think about eating after supper, that’s a no-no. That I’ve been raised to believe you don’t eat after supper, you don’t eat before bed. So then, I think about that and do I want to, how do I encourage eating from hunger but not it’s just like I said, its the, all of those messages coming in and then still figuring out what my body wants and also fostering that kind of intuition in my son as he’s growing and learning about what his body wants.
Yeah, yeah. This is like a whole project on it’s own in terms of feeding our children. This, I would put you to Ellyn Satter and she’s the guru on feeding, and I will put a link in my show notes about her. She has a wonderful website and the premise of her theories, she calls it the division of responsibility in terms of feeding. I’ll walk you through some of them. What Ellyn Satter says is you choose and prepare food, you provide regular meals and snacks, you make eating times pleasant, you show children by example how to behave at meal times, we’ve considered of children lack of food experience without catering to likes and dislikes, not let children have food or beverages except for water between meal and snack times. Let children grow into the bodies that are right for them and I think that that’s really important too. So, and then the responsibilities that your child has is to eat the amount that they need, learn to eat the foods that their parents eat, grow predictably in the way that is right for them, and learn to behave at meal time. So you guys are sitting down together and I’m assuming that these things are just naturally coming without you forcing it, the learning to behave at meal time but what you’re asking about is how to provide a space where can be cultivating intuitive eating. I think that this might be something to think about cause I don’t have children nor do I work specifically in this realm of feeding children so other people might have different perspectives but I’m looking at this, your question in the lens of seeing these children later in life like yourself, that rule of I was told to finish all of my meals or don’t leave the table until dinner is done. That kind of stuff. So as adults I see that some of these rules have been playing a role in terms of disruption in relationships with food so I would say my first thought is the rule of not eating after dinner. I’m not sure if necessarily I would hold that one hard and fast because if your son is hungry and you’re saying your not allowed to eat, I don’t think that necessarily cultivates the ability to follow hunger fullness cues, right?
Absolutely, that’s a really good point.
So I think that one might be a good one to think about. The thing about children is that they intuitively are already intuitive about their hunger fullness cues so a lot of what Ellyn is talking about is you offer the nutritious meals and the fun foods and they choose how much they’re going to eat of those things. If you feed them in predictable patterns, so what she’s saying here, providing regular meals and snacks, it allows your child to understand that there’s meal times so it gets that rhythm of eating versus having it just kind of laissez faire I think that sometimes people think that intuitive eating is not having any structure and you do need to provide structure for both adults and children in order to be intuitive to understand hunger fullness cues. So I would maintain your regular meals and snacks, I think the key for him to understand hunger fullness cues is to leave him alone
And just let him choose when, what and how much?
Not necessarily when or what because you’re going to choose what are meal times so you’re going to choose okay breakfast is at this time, dinner is at this time. You’re choosing what is on offer: so this is what I’m cooking for dinner. But he’s choosing how much he eats.
Right, okay. So then if he at supper time, if he doesn’t finish his supper then is he … then should I be offering a post-supper snack? Like a bedtime snack? I mean, I don’t know. Maybe nutritionally, I could do the research if whether children should have a bedtime snack in terms of their growth and development, but I wonder and I think that sometimes I make meals that are more health conscious and he might not find as palatable as the snack that he might be relying on for later, so I’m worrying that he’s purposely not going to be eating his vegetables or his whatever it is, at the time because he’s relying on having the apple or almonds later.
Right, this might be a question for somebody that works with kids but from my perspective, your child is going to get his nutritional needs because he’s eating so frequently and you’re offering really good healthy meals so my first thought is I wouldn’t worry about whether or not if he gets the nutrition cause he misses nutrition in one meal that he’s out of luck kinda thing so yeah I wouldn’t worry too too much. In terms of small kids they do need regular meals and snacks. They can’t, their stomachs aren’t big enough to give them enough energy to carry them as long as an adult can. Their needs are much higher pound for pound. Their needs are higher and their stomach is smaller so you need to give them more regular snacks than what a fully formed adult.
That makes sense and I like what you said about with the regular nutrition. It’s not like if he misses that vegetable, that supper, he's not going stunt in his growth or whatever, right? There will always be and that’s something I keep forgetting myself too, there will always be another meal, there will always be a family. Don’t have to finish this all in one sitting.
Yes, and you can see how these divisions of responsibilities really translate into adulthood. You’re 100% right, is that these things we should be doing so as adults we should be playing both roles is that have regular meals available, have a kind of a typically regular time of eating, eat as much as you want and stop when you’re full. Y’know these kinds of things we should be doing on both sides but also just like children we’re going to be getting the nutrition that we need from meal to meal, snack to snack and whether or not some of the meals and some of the snacks were not hitting the highest nutrition at that point, you’re going to get it at the next one. And I think that we create so much pressure on that this meal has got to be the healthiest or I can only eat if it’s healthy or I shouldn’t eat this food because it’s not healthy is I just think we need to throw that all out because our natural tendency just like your son, his natural tendency is not that he’s going to eat cookies and candy and chocolate for a meal and feel okay. He’s likely not going to feel so great so overtime, certainly for adults, we’re going to be like ahh I kinda want some vegetables at some point. Our body is going to tell us what it needs and we don’t necessarily need to pressure it, but just like an adult for you caring for somebody else, you’re going to put in some thought to balance the meals for him so that’s kind of where this parent-child role within ourselves, we need to parent ourselves to some degree knowing that okay I might want ice cream for dinner but that’s not going to feel really good and it’s not so great for me so let me kind of throw in some things in here and I’m going to have my ice cream for dessert. I’m going to eat dinner first. That kind of parent-child dynamic lives within us.
Right so I guess it’s just that listening to my body, making those decisions for my body I mean I’d love to have ice cream for dinner but I know you’re right. I know that my body is not going to feel that great with, with that and so having quote-on-quote proper meal balance, balanced meal before or even instead of would be the right decision for my body.
Yes, and his too. And to that point around bodies I think what is really lovely about Ellyn Satter’s list here is these last couple of points here is let children grow into the bodies that are right for them and that his responsibility, predictably in the way that is right for him and I think that is the same for us, is to allow our bodies to do what it needs to do, knowing that it’s going to slide into a baseline that is healthy for your body and so not trying to pressure our bodies or their bodies to look a certain way because then it starts down this rabbit hole of not feeling our bodies are safe, not feeling that our bodies are operating properly. So to cultivate that his body, we can trust his body. That he can eat, that he knows what his body needs so if he finishes sooner or needs more later or eats more than what you think that his body is doing what it needs.
Okay, that’s really important. That’s really interesting. I really like all those points that you made. Can I just ask one more thing that is sort of in addition well kind of ties in to that but it’s just about the labels that we have for good foods and bad foods or not bad foods but like junk foods and trying to balance like that nutritional supper with the ice cream, ice cream being the bad food. That’s something that in my upbringing it was always a treat. A treat to have a cookie or ice cream and I’ve been really working hard to try and label it as what it is like we’re having ice cream. It’s not a treat, we’re just eating. We’re just enjoying the food. How can I erase those? It’s almost subconscious like when I have something that’s not necessarily nutritious then I think oh now I need to make sure that tomorrow I have super nutritious …
Ahh right. Well, first off I like the way you’re just framing these foods as what the food item is. We’re having ice cream. I think that that’s a great way of just separating it completely from this good and bad idea and the fact that you’re thinking about that is wonderful. I think that that’s great for yourself of that you need pay the price for that ice cream next day. Yeah, I think what we said earlier around you’re going to get the nutrition that you need. I think that that reminding yourself about that that whether you have ice cream one day and not the other or ice cream two days in a row it really doesn’t matter because you’re eating your regular meals. For talking fears around weight gain I think the same thing for trusting your body. If you’re tuning into your hunger fullness cues and eating the foods that you find are nutritious for you and you have these fun foods above and beyond then your body is going to be in its safe kind of happy zone and trusting that.
Okay.
Does that hit? Or no?
Well, I’m not sure how … I think that there’s a lot of validity in the idea that for me the big hit was remembering that this food is available and that it’s not a feast or famine type of thing. I don’t need to have a huge bowl of ice cream or four cookies because I know I can have that later, I can have that tomorrow it’s not like I need to … but because those are junkier or less nutritious foods, then there’s still that stigma around them that I shouldn’t have them so that makes me want to have them more. So I think it’s just finding that balance of how to figure out … how to make peace with consuming those foods and not having that urge to overeat them or being more able to listen to what my body actually wants.
Yeah cause you’re right. The way that you described it really takes on what we were saying earlier on if you give yourself to eat it again then the next day it doesn’t have to be that feast or famine. And because you’re saying when I have it, the next day you’re trying to make that a more healthy day, you’re basically telling yourself you can’t have it on that next day.
Right, I was just thinking too like how when, again when I was raised we have a large meal, we have a lot of treat foods, or fun foods, then we have to make sure we go to the gym, we go for a walk, it’s almost like a punishment type of thing that we have to exercise to burn off those calories. It’s just a way of thinking that, that I was raised with and a lot of us were and that I acknowledge and I’ve done the reading and the research that we need to move past that but it’s still really challenging to get those messages, but get past those messages when I’m still thinking about them and still even to this day I still, y’know my family members are still reminding me of how oh this is a big lunch so I don’t need to have supper, right?
Yeah, yeah. It’s really hard to pay attention when you’re trying to do something different when everybody is saying different stuff and things are contradictory to what you know is right for you. Yeah, yeah. But I think to balance these other foods, I think the other thing about that cause as you’re talking I was thinning, cause it is an interesting thing where were saying well of course having ice cream for dinner isn’t really a great fit and the fear is if I give myself permission to have it tomorrow, I might have it for dinner or I might have it every day. I might have it all day, every day, like there’s this fears that it’s gonna be out of control and I think if you keep in the state of paying attention to what your body needs, understanding that rationally and this is where it gets hard where you’re tripping out Shannon is that rationally I know some things but rationally I’ve been told other stuff so it’s hard to discern how much of actual thought around balancing your nutrition. Do I need to pay attention to because it gets so wrapped up with diet stuff.
It’s true, yes. Such a challenge, but I think that you’ve given me some really good tid bits today like just how to figure … how to move through that and become more in tuned with my body and become more I guess at peace with my eating behaviours and yeah.
Yeah, you’re well on your way and the fact that you’re thinking about it is great.
Awesome. That’s really cool; thank you for acknowledging that because it does feel like a struggle it feels like I’m sort of all up in the air and I have a child to be a model for and try and figure … so it is challenging so I really appreciate you acknowledging that and recognizing because yes it's worked for sure to relearn and rehabitualize.
Certainly, in particular because you have a young one cause you’re thinking well okay I want it to be different and how do I do this and I think the fact that you’re thinking about and you’re having conversations and you’re talking with him about the messages he’s getting I think that that’s also a wonderful thing to do with your child is because they’re also getting bombarded with these things and I think having conversations about a critical view of some of the stuff that he’s hearing at school, on the playground, from other family members and talking openly about what they might think may not be a good fit for you and these are why and this is why we do something different at home and this is why. I think that arms him the ongoing onslaught of stuff that he will see too.
And for him to feel empowered to make his own decisions to say there are different ways of doing things and different ways of thinking about it so how do you feel? How does your body feel? What do you need for your body? I think that’s really cool! Great, awesome, thank you! Thank you so much. I’m really really grateful that you took the time to answer my questions and just our conversation has just enriched my own thinking so thank you.
Oh wonderful! Thank you Shannon. I really appreciate you coming on and I really appreciate you for the work that you’re doing.
Thank you Jessica.
We’ll talk again soon, hopefully and let me know how it goes.
I will, thank you.
Okay take care.
Buh-bye!
Okay, bye.
Outro
If you’d like to come on the show to have me answer your question live, or you have a question you’d like me to answer on my own on the show, email me at support@shiftnutrition.ca. Looking forward to chatting with you all! See you next week!
Disclaimer
This podcast is for education and information purposes only. Please consult your own healthcare team to discuss what is right for you and your care.